Politik

Autor: "Kurt Knoll" (2004-02-22 08:34:18)

"Albrecht Kolthoff" wrote in message
news:SSYPEE35C9BF@sisyphus.ath.cx...
> Morghus wrote:
>
> >>
> >> This is funny, Morghus. You do not believe your own denier gurus of
German descent
> >> if it is about the meaning of words in a language you have no idea
of.
> >
> > I have no "gurus," of German descent or otherwise. Graf, Mattogno,
> >Irving, Rudolf, and others are revisionists--they believe in the
> >Holocaust. Keep in mind that I am a denier--I dont believe any of
> >it.
>
> Oh. Are you going to found a new organization for True Deniers?
>
> >> Perhaps you believe a certain Friedrich Karl Freiherr von Eberstein
who testified
> >> as a witness of the defense at the Nuremberg Military Tribunal, He
was testifying
> >> about the period of June 1934:
> >
> >
> > Whatever period he was testifying about, he was testifying in
> >1946
>
> Yes, and 1946 certainly is part of the 1940s.
>
> >, and his testimony was simultaneously translated and recorded in
> >English. The translators were hastily chosen multilinguists, many of
> >whom had been chased out of Germany by the National Socialists. Care
> >should be taken when drawing conclusions about what was actually said
> >at Nuremberg.
>
> Translations do not matter; I have included the English translation
only for the
> convenience of those who cant understand German. It is completeley
sufficient to
> look at the German testimony.
>
> >>
========================================================================
====
> >> RA. PELCKMANN: Schildern Sie bitte im einzelnen, wie es aber doch,
soweit ich
> >> unterrichtet bin, zu Tötungen gekommen ist.
> >>
> >> VON EBERSTEIN: Jawohl. Im Laufe des 30. Juni kam zu mir ein
SS-Obersturmbannführer
> >> Beutel vom SD mit einem Sonderauftrag, den er von Heydrich bekommen
hatte. Es war
> >> noch ein jüngerer Mann, dieser Beutel, und er wußte nicht, was er
nun machen
> >> sollte und kam zu mir, um von mir als älterem Mann einen Rat zu
holen. Er hatte
> >> einen Befehl, in dem waren ungefähr 28 Namen enthalten und ein
Zusatz, aus dem
> >> hervorging, daß ein Teil dieser Leute verhaftet und ein anderer
Teil exekutiert
> >> werden sollte. Dieses Schriftstück trug keine Unterschrift, und ich
riet daher
> >> diesem Obersturmbannführer, doch unbedingt eine Klarheit
herbeizuführen, was nun
> >> geschehen solle und warnte ihn auch sehr nachdrücklich vor
irgendwelchen
> >> unbesonnenen Handlungen. Es ist dann, soweit ich mich erinnern
kann, ein Kurier
> >> nach Berlin geschickt worden und dieser Kurier hat dann acht
Exekutionsbefehle
> >> mitgebracht, und zwar von Heydrich. Diese Befehle hatten ungefähr
folgenden
> >> Inhalt: Auf Befehl des Führers und Reichskanzlers wird der und
der - und dann
> >> folgte der Name des Betreffenden - wegen Hoch- und Landesverrats
zum Tode durch
> >> Erschießen verurteilt.
> >> [Der Nürnberger Prozeß: Einhundertvierundneunzigster Tag. Samstag,
3. August 1946,
> >> S. 33. Digitale Bibliothek Band 20: Der Nürnberger Prozeß, S. 25997
(vgl. NP Bd.
> >> 20, S. 318)]
> >>
========================================================================
====
>
> [...]
>
> >> Von Eberstein was asked about "Tötungen", killings. He testified
that some people
> >> should have been "exekutiert", executed; he then talks about eight
> >> "Exekutionsbefehle", orders of execution. Finally he said that
these orders
> >> contained the judgment "zum Tode durch Erschießen verurteilt",
condemned to death
> >> by shooting.
> >>
> >> Do you accuse von Eberstein of poor command of his mother tongue as
well?
> >
> >
> > I cant tell whether Von Ebersteins testimony was the original
> >German or was translated from the Nuremberg English transcription. As
> >I understand the procedure at Nuremberg, all the testimony was
> >simultaneously translated and transcribed only in English.
>
> This is wrong.
>
>
========================================================================
====
> OBERST DOSTERT, CHEF DER DOLMETSCHER: Hoher Gerichtshof! Ein
Stenogramm der
> Verhandlung in allen vier Sprachen wird gleichzeitig
niedergeschrieben, und jedes
> Wort, das deutsch gesprochen wird, wird von deutschen Stenographen
sofort
> niedergeschrieben. Diese Notizen werden abgeschrieben und der
Verteidigung zur
> Verfügung gestellt. Weiterhin besteht eine maschinelle Einrichtung,
> die jedes Wort niederschreibt, das in irgendeiner Sprache innerhalb
des
> Gerichtssaals gesprochen wird. Im Falle eines Zweifels haben wir die
weitere
> Möglichkeit, die Genauigkeit der Stenogramme durch diese maschinelle
Einrichtung
> zu überprüfen, und es steht der Verteidigung damit frei, die
Genauigkeit der
> Übersetzung zu überprüfen.
>
> JUSTICE JACKSON: Oberst Dostert teilt mir weiterhin mit, daß die
Angeklagten
> selbst 25 Kopien der deutschen Niederschrift täglich erhalten.
>
> FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Ich war nicht unterrichtet, daß die
deutschen Aussagen
> auch deutsch stenographiert werden. Ich habe angenommen, daß die
übermittelten
> Protokolle Übersetzungen seien. Wenn wirklich deutsche Stenogramme
aufgenommen
> werden, ist mein Antrag damit erledigt.
> [Der Nürnberger Prozeß: Zehnter Tag. Samstag, 1. Dezember 1945, S. 46.
Digitale
> Bibliothek Band 20: Der Nürnberger Prozeß, S. 2249 (vgl. NP Bd. 3, S.
28)]
>
========================================================================
====
>
> English:
>
>
========================================================================
====
> COLONEL LEON DOSTERT (Chief of Interpreters): Your Honors, the reports
of the
> proceedings are taken down in all four languages and every word spoken
in German
> is taken down in German by German court stenographers. The notes are
then
> transcribed and can be made available to Defense Counsel. More over,
there is a
> mechanical recording device which registers every single word spoken
in any
> language in the courtroom, and in case of doubt about the authenticity
of the
> reporters notes, we have the further verification of the mechanical
recording, so
> that Defense Counsel should have every opportunity to check the
authenticity of
> the translation.
>
> MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I am advised further by Colonel Dostert that 25
copies of the
> German transcript are being delivered to the defendants each day.
>
> FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUEHLER: Mr. President, I was not informed that
the German
> testimony is being taken down in shorthand in German. I assumed that
the records
> handed over to us were translations. If German shorthand notes are
being taken in
> the court, I withdraw my motion.
> http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/12-01-45.htm
>
========================================================================
====
>
> > The
> >documents offered in evidence were translated into different
> >languages, but not the simultaneously translated testimony.
>
> See above; the testimonies delievered in German were taken down in
German.
>
> > But it really doesnt matter. I will assume, for the sake of this
> >discussion, that it is the original German Language testimony.
>
> Ok.
>
> > Von
> >Ebersteins German language testimony, if it is genuine, can easily
be
> >translated as follows:
>
> Nope, it doesnt need to be translated. The German testimony has to be
> scrutinized.
>
> Von Eberstein was asked about "Tötungen". He testified about 28 people
whre one
> part of these should have been "verhaftet" and another should have
been
> "exekutiert"; he then talks about eight "Exekutionsbefehle". Finally
he said that
> these orders - "Exekutionsbefehle" - contained the judgment "zum Tode
durch
> Erschießen verurteilt".
>
> Von Eberstein therefore said that "Exekutionsbefehle" meant "zum Tode
durch
> Erschießen verurteilt".
>
> [...]
>
> > "Exekutionsbefehle" should be translated as "executive-order,"
> >not an order to kill someone.
>
> But that is exactly what von Eberstein said: of 28 people in total one
part was to
> be "exekutiert"; he received "Exekutionsbefehle" regarding eight
people which
> meant "zum Tode durch Erschießen verurteilt".
>
> They were orders to kill these eight people.
>
> > Notice that the actual order from
> >Heydrich contained specific references to death ("zum tote")and
> >shooting ("Erschiessen"). It did not use a form of the word
> >"exekutieren." Thats because "exekutieren" as used by the German
> >officials in the 1940s did not mean "kill." It meant to impound or
> >incarcerate.
>
> Nope; von Eberstein explicitly said that one part of the 28 was to be
arrested and
> the other part was to be "exekutiert"; he received "Exekutionsbefehle"
for eight
> people containing the order to kill them by shooting.
>
> [...]
>
> --
> Albrecht Kolthoff

Yes Kolthoff and Your Nuremberg Process was a Real Show. I am from
Nuremberg and did Listen to your Show every time. Many times you show
was interrupted Because we were not allowed to listen to the Details.
For You Enjoyment the Radio Station Switched over and have us Listening
to the Jewish Synagogue for Your Enjoyment Letters from the Public about
the Trial were never Published egg Printed. Was this American Justice
like on A&E Television.

Kurt Knoll.
======

Autor: "Kurt Knoll" (2004-02-22 08:34:18)