Re: MacDonald on Lipstadt and the Holocaust

Autor: "Kurt Knoll" (2003-07-01 16:06:01)

"Philip Mathews" wrote in message
news:i0oMa.77718$R73.10157@sccrnsc04...
> "Kurt Knoll" wrote in message
> news:1057098200.594695@critter.monarch.net...
> >
> > "Philip Mathews" wrote in message
> > news:61nMa.9500$926.604@sccrnsc03...
> > > "Richard Phillips" wrote in message
> > > news:3F01FABD.14C7CF90@mbay.net...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Roger wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > In one age, called the Second Age by some,
> > > > > (an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
> > > > > someone claiming to be Richard Phillips wrote
> > > > > in message :
> > > > >
> > > > > > Institute for Historical Review
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Dr. MacDonalds Testimony in the Irving-Lipstadt Trial
> > > > >
> > > > > ... might actually have mattered, if the *facts* did not show
that
> > > > > Irving deliberately lied and distorted his sources in
furtherance
> > of
> > > > > his ideology as opposed to being attacked for his
anti-semitism.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, still waiting for you over on the "sailor57" thread,
where
> > you
> > > > > were tap dancing around the facts of the various studies done
on
> > the
> > > > > Auschwitz gas chambers...
> > >
> > > > Are you truly and genuinely convinced that Jews were gassed
> > > > at A-B.
> > > >
> > > > OK. Prove it to me.
> > >
> > > The evidence for the existence and operation of gas chambers has
been
> > posted
> > > here numerous times. You deny the evidence, and then start your
> > ignorant
> > > demand for more evidence in the very next breath. You have made
> > yourself a
> > > laughing stock.
> > >
> > > For Auschwitz in particular, the evidence is overwhelming. It
begins
> > with
> > > the admissions by the perpetrators.
> > >
> > > The first Auschwitz trials were held in Poland in 1947, in the
cities
> > of
> > > Warsaw and Krakow, and involved 40 members of the Auschwitz SS.
Hoess
> > and 23
> > > others received death sentences, 6 were sentenced to life, and all
but
> > one
> > > of the rest received sentences ranging from 3 to 15 years in
prison.
> > >
> > > Subsequently, over 600 Auschwitz SS were tried in district courts
in
> > > Krakow,Wadowice, Raciborz, Cieszyn, Sosnowiec, Gliwice, Bytom, and
> > Katowice.
> > > 590 were convicted and sentenced, including 8 death sentences and
3
> > life
> > > sentences.
> > >
> > > And then in the early 1960s in Frankfurt an additional 22
defendents
> > were
> > > tried for their crimes at Auschwitz. What follows is an incomplete
> > list of
> > > those Germans who admitted that Jews were gassed in the gas
chambers
> > of
> > > Auschwitz.
> > >
> > > Baretzki
> > >
> > > Lucas
> > >
> > > Kaduk
> > >
> > > Stark
> > >
> > > Hoffman
> > >
> > > Broad
> > >
> > > Klehr
> > >
> > > Morgan
> > >
> > > Kremer
> > >
> > > Mulka
> > >
> > > Bock
> > >
> > > Glaser
> > >
> > > Hoess
> > >
> > > Hege
> > >
> > > Siebald
> > >
> > > Wildermuth
> > >
> > > Wilks
> > >
> > > Wilhelmy
> > >
> > > Hocke
> > >
> > > Munch Prufer
> > >
> > > Sander
> > >
> > > Schultze
> > >
> > > Stark
> > >
> > > Hoeblinger
> > >
> > > In addition we have the testimony of Sonderkommandos who were
> > intimately
> > > acquainted with the process of gassing and cremation, men such as
> > Tauber,
> > > Dragon, Jankowski, Mueller, Nyszli, Olere, and others.
> > >
> > > The testimonial evidence alone is very powerful evidence, coming
as it
> > does
> > > from those who were the perpetrators and those who were forced to
> > > participate in some way. In particular, the testimonies of
Commandant
> > Hoess
> > > and Dr. Johann Kremer are very strong. Hoess testified as a
defense
> > witness
> > > for Kaltenbrunner at Nuremberg, at his own trial in Poland and
then
> > wrote a
> > > memoir which contains two long chapters on the evolution of the
> > gassing
> > > program at A/B over the years, an evolution supported by the
Auschwitz
> > > construction office documents. Kremers evidence is both
documentary
> > and
> > > testimonial. His contemporaneous diary, captured after the war,
> > provides
> > > many instances of individual gassing actions and this written
evidence
> > was
> > > corroborated and elaborated on in his post war testimony.
> > >
> > > If you would like to examine any of this testimony let me know.
> > >
> > > As for the physical structures themselves, documents from the
> > construction
> > > office of the camp detail the gas proofing of rooms supposed to be
> > morgues.
> > > Memoranda exist requesting the construction of gas tight doors and
> > windows,
> > > and these are then listed as part of the inventory documents for
the
> > Kremas.
> > > A letter exists requesting the acquisition of "cyanide gas
detectors"
> > for
> > > these rooms. The inventory for Krema II lists wire mesh insertion
> > devices,
> > > the means by which the Zyklon B was introduced into Kremas II and
III
> > as
> > > testified by numerous witnesses. Michael Kula, a Pole who worked
in
> > the
> > > metal workshop and who constructed these devices gave a precise
> > description
> > > of their structure in post war testimony. They are also visible on
> > wartime
> > > Nazis photos and Allied aerial photographs. Written correspondence
> > exists
> > > identifying rooms as gassing cellars (vergasungskellar) and gas
> > chambers
> > > (gaskammer). And post war forensic tests in 1945 and again in the
> > 1990s
> > > confirm the presence of HCN gas traces in these same rooms
equipped
> > with gas
> > > tight doors and windows, the same rooms in which many witnesses
tell
> > us the
> > > gassings took place, the same rooms which were part of buildings
> > > specifically constructed with an incineration capacity sufficient
to
> > > incinerate the projected maximum camp population of 150,000 in
just
> > over one
> > > month, all located in a camp to which 1.1 million people were
shipped
> > and
> > > were then never accounted for.
> > >
> > > If youd like to examine any of these pieces of evidence, let me
> > know.
> > >
> > > In the meantime, if youd like to continue to expose yourself as
an
> > absolute
> > > idiot by denying there is substantial evidence for gas chambers,
be my
> > > guest.
>
> > Is this how the Jewish system works Mathews but make sure non of
them
> > can tell their side of the Story so it can be investigated.
>
> This is how history works, moron.
>
> They told their side of the story. They said they gassed Jews.
Apparently
> most of them were no more intelligent or moral than you.
>
> >What a way
> > to write histories Mathews after that pass laws in Germany that
makes
> > it illegal to discuss the holocaust in public then make sure that
> > everyone that asks questions later on is called a nazi or anti
Semite.
>
> The basic history was written long before laws against lying about
history
> were passed. And it is being written today in many nations having no
such
> laws.
>
> The laws you complain of have nothing to do with the established facts
of
> the Holocaust.
>
> Take that realization to the grave.
>
> --
> Philip Mathews
>
> "Mankind have a great aversion to intellectual labor; but even
supposing
> knowledge to be easily attainable, more people would be content to be
> ignorant than would take even a little trouble to acquire it."
>
> Samuel Johnson

This is what you say if some of them were still alive today would they
be allowed to talk freely or would they be under a gag order. Would
their life be in danger if they do or would they go back to jail if the
anything about it in todays Germany ?.

Kurt Knoll.
========
>
>

Autor: "Philip Mathews" (2003-07-02 03:40:08)

"Kurt Knoll" wrote in message
news:1057100703.299006@critter.monarch.net...

> "Philip Mathews" wrote in message
> news:i0oMa.77718$R73.10157@sccrnsc04...

(snip)

> > > Is this how the Jewish system works Mathews but make sure non of
> them
> > > can tell their side of the Story so it can be investigated.
> >
> > This is how history works, moron.
> >
> > They told their side of the story. They said they gassed Jews.
> Apparently
> > most of them were no more intelligent or moral than you.
> >
> > >What a way
> > > to write histories Mathews after that pass laws in Germany that
> makes
> > > it illegal to discuss the holocaust in public then make sure that
> > > everyone that asks questions later on is called a nazi or anti
> Semite.
> >
> > The basic history was written long before laws against lying about
> history
> > were passed. And it is being written today in many nations having no
> such
> > laws.
> >
> > The laws you complain of have nothing to do with the established facts
> of
> > the Holocaust.
> >
> > Take that realization to the grave.

> This is what you say if some of them were still alive today would they
> be allowed to talk freely or would they be under a gag order.

They already talked freely.

How many times do they have to talk freely for a brain dead Nazi like you?

Maybe we should doubt all history until we can figure a way to bring back
all eyewitnesses so they can testify over and over again.

Or else we could just disregard total loons like you.

--
Philip Mathews

"Mankind have a great aversion to intellectual labor; but even supposing
knowledge to be easily attainable, more people would be content to be
ignorant than would take even a little trouble to acquire it."

Samuel Johnson

Autor: "Philip Mathews" (2003-07-02 03:40:08)

Autor: "Kurt Knoll" (2003-07-02 08:09:52)

"Philip Mathews" wrote in message
news:susMa.14090$fG.8582@sccrnsc01...
> "Kurt Knoll" wrote in message
> news:1057100703.299006@critter.monarch.net...
>
> > "Philip Mathews" wrote in message
> > news:i0oMa.77718$R73.10157@sccrnsc04...
>
> (snip)
>
> > > > Is this how the Jewish system works Mathews but make sure non of
> > them
> > > > can tell their side of the Story so it can be investigated.
> > >
> > > This is how history works, moron.
> > >
> > > They told their side of the story. They said they gassed Jews.
> > Apparently
> > > most of them were no more intelligent or moral than you.
> > >
> > > >What a way
> > > > to write histories Mathews after that pass laws in Germany that
> > makes
> > > > it illegal to discuss the holocaust in public then make sure
that
> > > > everyone that asks questions later on is called a nazi or anti
> > Semite.
> > >
> > > The basic history was written long before laws against lying about
> > history
> > > were passed. And it is being written today in many nations having
no
> > such
> > > laws.
> > >
> > > The laws you complain of have nothing to do with the established
facts
> > of
> > > the Holocaust.
> > >
> > > Take that realization to the grave.
>
> > This is what you say if some of them were still alive today would
they
> > be allowed to talk freely or would they be under a gag order.
>
> They already talked freely.
>
> How many times do they have to talk freely for a brain dead Nazi like
you?
>
> Maybe we should doubt all history until we can figure a way to bring
back
> all eyewitnesses so they can testify over and over again.
>
> Or else we could just disregard total loons like you.
>
> --
> Philip Mathews
>
> "Mankind have a great aversion to intellectual labor; but even
supposing
> knowledge to be easily attainable, more people would be content to be
> ignorant than would take even a little trouble to acquire it."
>
> Samuel Johnson
>
>
>

When did they talk freely and where and to whom.

Kurt Knoll.
======

Autor: Richard Phillips (2003-07-02 09:44:09)

Kurt Knoll wrote:
>
> "Philip Mathews" wrote in message
> news:i0oMa.77718$R73.10157@sccrnsc04...
> > "Kurt Knoll" wrote in message
> > news:1057098200.594695@critter.monarch.net...
> > >
> > > "Philip Mathews" wrote in message
> > > news:61nMa.9500$926.604@sccrnsc03...
> > > > "Richard Phillips" wrote in message
> > > > news:3F01FABD.14C7CF90@mbay.net...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Roger wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In one age, called the Second Age by some,
> > > > > > (an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
> > > > > > someone claiming to be Richard Phillips wrote
> > > > > > in message :
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Institute for Historical Review
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Dr. MacDonalds Testimony in the Irving-Lipstadt Trial
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ... might actually have mattered, if the *facts* did not show
> that
> > > > > > Irving deliberately lied and distorted his sources in
> furtherance
> > > of
> > > > > > his ideology as opposed to being attacked for his
> anti-semitism.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BTW, still waiting for you over on the "sailor57" thread,
> where
> > > you
> > > > > > were tap dancing around the facts of the various studies done
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > Auschwitz gas chambers...
> > > >
> > > > > Are you truly and genuinely convinced that Jews were gassed
> > > > > at A-B.
> > > > >
> > > > > OK. Prove it to me.
> > > >
> > > > The evidence for the existence and operation of gas chambers has
> been
> > > posted
> > > > here numerous times. You deny the evidence, and then start your
> > > ignorant
> > > > demand for more evidence in the very next breath. You have made
> > > yourself a
> > > > laughing stock.

================================================================
Phillips

A laughing stock.

Tell me: Why and by what means is this widespread laughter
communicated to you and yet not to me.

============================================================================
> > > >
> > > > For Auschwitz in particular, the evidence is overwhelming. It
> begins
> > > with
> > > > the admissions by the perpetrators.
> > > >
> > > > The first Auschwitz trials were held in Poland in 1947, in the
> cities
> > > of
> > > > Warsaw and Krakow, and involved 40 members of the Auschwitz SS.
> Hoess
> > > and 23
> > > > others received death sentences, 6 were sentenced to life, and all
> but
> > > one
> > > > of the rest received sentences ranging from 3 to 15 years in
> prison.
> > > >
> > > > Subsequently, over 600 Auschwitz SS were tried in district courts
> in
> > > > Krakow,Wadowice, Raciborz, Cieszyn, Sosnowiec, Gliwice, Bytom, and
> > > Katowice.
> > > > 590 were convicted and sentenced, including 8 death sentences and
> 3
> > > life
> > > > sentences.

==========================================================
Phillips

Trials in Poland.

Trials in a Communist Poland under Soviet occupation.

Trials in a Communist Poland under Soviet occupation with
German-hating Jews holding a great many key positions.

Trials in whose verdicts Russia had an enormous political
interest.

And you assure us that these trials must, necessarily, have
been fair trials.

Youre even more pathetic than I expected youd be.

=======================================================

> > > >
> > > > And then in the early 1960s in Frankfurt an additional 22
> defendents
> > > were
> > > > tried for their crimes at Auschwitz. What follows is an incomplete
> > > list of
> > > > those Germans who admitted that Jews were gassed in the gas
> chambers
> > > of
> > > > Auschwitz.
> > > >
> > > > Baretzki
> > > >
> > > > Lucas
> > > >
> > > > Kaduk
> > > >
> > > > Stark
> > > >
> > > > Hoffman
> > > >
> > > > Broad
> > > >
> > > > Klehr
> > > >
> > > > Morgan
> > > >
> > > > Kremer
> > > >
> > > > Mulka
> > > >
> > > > Bock
> > > >
> > > > Glaser
> > > >
> > > > Hoess
> > > >
> > > > Hege
> > > >
> > > > Siebald
> > > >
> > > > Wildermuth
> > > >
> > > > Wilks
> > > >
> > > > Wilhelmy
> > > >
> > > > Hocke
> > > >
> > > > Munch Prufer
> > > >
> > > > Sander
> > > >
> > > > Schultze
> > > >
> > > > Stark
> > > >
> > > > Hoeblinger

=============================================================
Phillips

THis has been replied to more than once. If you wish to
decry my postings as a load of crap you are perfectly free
to do so. What irritates me is when people act as though
there had never BEEN such postings. I find it irritating to
have to continually repeat myself.

You have never lived under a military occupation by a
foreign power, a foreign power who is convinced that the
people of your nation were very bad people; moreover a
military occupation with civilian superiors who not only
believe your nation is made up of very bad people but people
who must be punished for being bad people.

So the order goes down: from the secretary to the general to
the colonel to the major to the captain to the Lt. "Get
confessions. I wont know how you get them and I dont want
to know." Do you need me to tell you what is going to
happen. The order goes to what an army calls its
"intelligence" dept. THese are the specialists in getting
information they want or in getting "confessions" they want.
The methods have been used for centuries and almost always
work. Yes, "our boys" do things like that. They not only did
them in occupied Germany they also did them during the
Philippines insurgency and they did them in Vietnam. Thats
the way the world runs.

I see you have included Hoess and Im glad you did. I means
you are foolish enough to include a man who "confessed" to a
number of killings twice the figure you people are presently
claiming. And I am supposed to believe him.

THere is more: the question of why the accused never denied
the acts attributed to them. Good question. Imagine that you
were one of those on trial for witchcraft in Salem in 1692.
Do you think it wuld have been a wise defence to deny that
there is such a thing AS witchcraft? What it would amount to
is calling your judges superstitious fools.

We like to think weve come a long way in 250 years but the
same sort of factor was operating at the Nurmburg Trials.
The judges were not there to ascertain what had happened,
they KNEW what had happened. Their only reason for being
there was to put some gloss of legality no the process.

The prisoners counsels understood this. And that is why
they told the prisoners that denial would be suicidal. They
would only brand themselves as liars. Their only hope was to
attempt to minimize their own responsibility.

========================================================================================

> > > > In addition we have the testimony of Sonderkommandos who were
> > > intimately
> > > > acquainted with the process of gassing and cremation, men such as
> > > Tauber,
> > > > Dragon, Jankowski, Mueller, Nyszli, Olere, and others.
> > > >
> > > > The testimonial evidence alone is very powerful evidence, coming
> as it
> > > does
> > > > from those who were the perpetrators and those who were forced to
> > > > participate in some way.

==========================================================
Phillips

Ah, yes, the sonderkommandos. Im so glad you brought them
up. Now, according to you people, these were the very slime
who ASSISTED in the murder of their fellow Jews for whatever
comforts or advantages it would bring them. Do you really
imagine it would be an insuperable task to get those slime
to "confess" to whatever it was you wanted confessing to? A
modest increase in their rations would have easily done the
trick.

=====================================================================

In particular, the testimonies of
> Commandant
> > > Hoess
> > > > and Dr. Johann Kremer are very strong. Hoess testified as a
> defense
> > > witness
> > > > for Kaltenbrunner at Nuremberg, at his own trial in Poland and
> then
> > > wrote a
> > > > memoir which contains two long chapters on the evolution of the
> > > gassing
> > > > program at A/B over the years, an evolution supported by the
> Auschwitz
> > > > construction office documents.

==================================================
Phillips

Supported in what ways?

=====================================

Kremers evidence is both
> documentary
> > > and
> > > > testimonial. His contemporaneous diary, captured after the war,
> > > provides
> > > > many instances of individual gassing actions and this written
> evidence
> > > was
> > > > corroborated and elaborated on in his post war testimony.
> > > >
> > > > If you would like to examine any of this testimony let me know.
> > > >
> > > > As for the physical structures themselves, documents from the
> > > construction
> > > > office of the camp detail the gas proofing of rooms supposed to be
> > > morgues.
================================================================
Phillips

Do they now?

THen isnt it odd that the thing that most impressed four
different men --Leuchter, Rudolf, Lindsey, and Luftl-- was
the complete ABSENCE of those measures which would have been
applied to an execution chamber to assure the safety of the
operating personnel.

===============================================================

> > > > Memoranda exist requesting the construction of gas tight doors and
> > > windows,
> > > > and these are then listed as part of the inventory documents for
> the
> > > Kremas.
> > > > A letter exists requesting the acquisition of "cyanide gas
> detectors"
> > > for
> > > > these rooms.

==================================================
Phillips

THese only tell us that the rooms were to be exposed to gas.
They tell us nothing about the purpose of said exposure.

================================================================

The inventory for Krema II lists wire mesh insertion
> > > devices,
> > > > the means by which the Zyklon B was introduced into Kremas II and
> III
> > > as
> > > > testified by numerous witnesses. Michael Kula, a Pole who worked
> in
> > > the
> > > > metal workshop and who constructed these devices gave a precise
> > > description
> > > > of their structure in post war testimony.

============================================================
Phillips

THere is a probsem with your wire-mesh devices. They were
said to have been used in connection with the large holes
cut into the roof. There is only one problem. They never
found the holes.

==============================================================

They are also visible on
> > > wartime
> > > > Nazis photos and Allied aerial photographs. Written correspondence
> > > exists
> > > > identifying rooms as gassing cellars (vergasungskellar) and gas
> > > chambers
> > > > (gaskammer).
========================================================
Phillips

No good. There is disagreement about the translation of
those words.

========================================================================

And post war forensic tests in 1945 and again in the
> > > 1990s
> > > > confirm the presence of HCN gas traces in these same rooms
> equipped
> > > with gas
> > > > tight doors and windows, the same rooms in which many witnesses
> tell
> > > us the
> > > > gassings took place,
================================================
Phillips

THere are traces and there are traces so I must ask you:
what were the EXTENT of the traces found on the walls of
your alleged execution chamber. IS there so much as one
solitary fragment of evidence that suggests that the traces
(1.0 to 7 mg/kg) are what we would expect in a room
subjected to the exposure you claim the "execution chamber"
was subjected to.

Those levels are nothing more than what you might find in
any randomly-chosen house or building.

============================================================================

the same rooms which were part of buildings
> > > > specifically constructed with an incineration capacity sufficient
> to
> > > > incinerate the projected maximum camp population of 150,000 in
> just
> > > over one
> > > > month, all located in a camp to which 1.1 million people were
> shipped
> > > and
> > > > were then never accounted for.
=====================================================
Phillips

Those claims about cremation capacity have been thoroughly
demolished both by Mattogno and by the testimony of Ivan
Lagace at the 2nd Zuendel trial.

==============================================================

> > > >
> > > > If youd like to examine any of these pieces of evidence, let me
> > > know.

> > > > In the meantime, if youd like to continue to expose yourself as
> an
> > > absolute
> > > > idiot by denying there is substantial evidence for gas chambers,
> be my
> > > > guest.

===========================================================
Phillips

Are you sure that "idiot" is the word you want to use here?
An idiot is a man subject to many limitations, among which
is the inability to form a coherent sentence. You obviously
dont like the sentences I form but I trust you will at
least concede that I CAN form coherent sentences.

Moreover it appears that in my case even the word idiot is
not by itself sufficient; rather, I have been elevated to
the level of "absolute idiot." Well, the Jews (and their
Allies) do let themselves get carried away in these matters
and this has to be allowed for.

You accuse me of "denying there is substantial evidence for
gas chambers." I dont deny that there is evidence; I merely
state that I do not find it convincing and give the reasons
why I dont.

========================================================================

> >
> > > Is this how the Jewish system works Mathews but make sure non of
> them
> > > can tell their side of the Story so it can be investigated.
> >
> > This is how history works, moron.
> >
> > They told their side of the story. They said they gassed Jews.
> Apparently
> > most of them were no more intelligent or moral than you.
> >
> > >What a way
> > > to write histories Mathews after that pass laws in Germany that
> makes
> > > it illegal to discuss the holocaust in public then make sure that
> > > everyone that asks questions later on is called a nazi or anti
> Semite.
> >
> > The basic history was written long before laws against lying about
> history
> > were passed. And it is being written today in many nations having no
> such
> > laws.
> >
> > The laws you complain of have nothing to do with the established facts
> of
> > the Holocaust.
> >
> > Take that realization to the grave.
> >
> > --
> > Philip Mathews
> >
> > "Mankind have a great aversion to intellectual labor; but even
> supposing
> > knowledge to be easily attainable, more people would be content to be
> > ignorant than would take even a little trouble to acquire it."
> >
> > Samuel Johnson
>
> This is what you say if some of them were still alive today would they
> be allowed to talk freely or would they be under a gag order. Would
> their life be in danger if they do or would they go back to jail if the
> anything about it in todays Germany ?.
>
> Kurt Knoll.
> ========
> >
> >

Autor: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) (2003-07-03 09:55:44)

In article , rgp777@mbay.net wrote:

<deletions>

> ================================================================
> Phillips
>
> A laughing stock.
>
> Tell me: Why and by what means is this widespread laughter
> communicated to you and yet not to me.
>
> ======================================================================

Read the group, Richard. For many in AR you are a source of humor and
mirth, nothing more.

<deletions>

> ==========================================================
> Phillips
>
> Trials in Poland.

Trials in Poland and West Germany. The big Auschwitz trial was in
Frankfurt-am-Main, West Germany, starting in August, 1964.

> ==========================================================
> Phillips

> Trials in a Communist Poland under Soviet occupation.

Trials in Poland initiated before it became a so-called peoples democracy.

> ==========================================================
> Phillips
> Trials in a Communist Poland under Soviet occupation with
> German-hating Jews holding a great many key positions.

There were very few Jews left in Poland, German-hating or otherwise, in
Poland after the war.

> ==========================================================
> Phillips
> Trials in whose verdicts Russia had an enormous political
> interest.

Trials aimed at assigning some legal responsibility to the people and
organizations who had killed approximately 10,000,000 Polish citizens
between 1939 and 1945.

> ==========================================================
> Phillips
> And you assure us that these trials must, necessarily, have
> been fair trials.

The trials held in Poland were open and as fair as can be expected in the
circumstances. The fact that sentences varied, with at least one of the
accused, Dr. Hans Münch, being shown innocent of the charges and acquitted
on the basis of testimony given by witnesses and himself, indicates that
it was not a simple kangeroo court.

> ==========================================================
> Phillips
>
> Youre even more pathetic than I expected youd be.
>
> =======================================================

Its the facile dismissal like this of evidence that you do not like that
makes you a laughing stock in the eyes of some readers of AR.

<deletions>

> =============================================================
> Phillips
>
> THis has been replied to more than once. If you wish to
> decry my postings as a load of crap you are perfectly free
> to do so. What irritates me is when people act as though
> there had never BEEN such postings. I find it irritating to
> have to continually repeat myself.
>
> You have never lived under a military occupation by a
> foreign power, a foreign power who is convinced that the
> people of your nation were very bad people; moreover a
> military occupation with civilian superiors who not only
> believe your nation is made up of very bad people but people
> who must be punished for being bad people.

As far as Poland is concerned, the Nazis *were* very bad people. They
invaded the country on the pretext of a bogus border incident, they killed
some 10,000,000 Polish citizens, stole just about everything that wasnt
nailed down, burned villages, literally wiped the capital, Warsaw, off of
the map, annexed Polish territory, and set up a network of concentration
camps and extermination facilities for the dual purposes of depolonizing
Polish territory as Lebensraum for future German colonization and of
decapitating Polish society by exterminating its intellectuals, clergy,
political leaders, Gypsies, and Jews.

There is nothing strange in the desire of those Poles who survived the war
to punish Germany for being very bad people.

> =============================================================
> Phillips
>
> So the order goes down: from the secretary to the general to
> the colonel to the major to the captain to the Lt. "Get
> confessions. I wont know how you get them and I dont want
> to know." Do you need me to tell you what is going to
> happen. The order goes to what an army calls its
> "intelligence" dept. THese are the specialists in getting
> information they want or in getting "confessions" they want.
> The methods have been used for centuries and almost always
> work. Yes, "our boys" do things like that. They not only did
> them in occupied Germany they also did them during the
> Philippines insurgency and they did them in Vietnam. Thats
> the way the world runs.

There was no difficulty getting confessions. The crimes were extremely
well documented. The Germans had filmed such things as the invasion of
Poland, the mass shooting of Poles, the gassing of prisoners at Chelmno,
the pillaging of the country, the economic exploitation of Poles, the
uprising in the Warsaw ghetto, the wanton destruction of Warsaw. The names
of the people and military units involved were no secret.

Your naive and silly scenario above is yet another example of why many
readers of SR regard you as a laughing stock. The crimes committed by the
Nazi regime in Poland were exceptionally well documented by both the
perpetrators and the victims. The problem was not one of obtaining
confessions. The problem was one of assigning responsibility. The typical
Nazi defense was: "Yes, I did indeed kill/burn/pillage/exterminate, but
only because I was a soldier/concentration camp guard/bureaucrat dutifully
following orders handed down from above. Had I refused to obey these
orders, I would have been shot on the spot and someone else would have
implemented them."

> =============================================================
> Phillips
>
> I see you have included Hoess and Im glad you did. I means
> you are foolish enough to include a man who "confessed" to a
> number of killings twice the figure you people are presently
> claiming. And I am supposed to believe him.

Once again you drag out this old canard.

Hoess testified and submitted to cross examination as an *expert witness*
at the trial of Ernst Kaltenbrunner. He did not "confess", but rather
voluntarily provided detailed information about the evolution and
implementation of the gas chambers and gassing procedures at Auschwitz. He
produced a figure which he admitted had been obtained second hand, the
veracity of which he could not vouch for, concerning the number of people
killed at Auschwitz. Later, in his memoirs, after having gone through the
Auschwitz trial at Cracow, he produced a more considered figure based on
his careful recollection of the various "actions" the Nazis had
systematically carried out against Jews on a country-by-country basis.
This figure, 1,130,000, the result of careful consideration rather than
one blurted out *ex tempore* in the courtroom, is approximately the same
as the one now recognized by historians, as being the closest to the
truth.

A question for you. If Hoess was innocent, as you seem to be implying, why
did he go into hiding, assume a false name, and fight like a wildcat when
he was eventually apprehended by British Military Intelligence? Could it
be that he had something on his conscience?

> =============================================================
> Phillips
>
> THere is more: the question of why the accused never denied
> the acts attributed to them. Good question. Imagine that you
> were one of those on trial for witchcraft in Salem in 1692.
> Do you think it wuld have been a wise defence to deny that
> there is such a thing AS witchcraft? What it would amount to
> is calling your judges superstitious fools.
>
> We like to think weve come a long way in 250 years but the
> same sort of factor was operating at the Nurmburg Trials.
> The judges were not there to ascertain what had happened,
> they KNEW what had happened. Their only reason for being
> there was to put some gloss of legality no the process.

Youre damned right that the KNEW what had happened. The destruction of
Poland, of the élite of Polish society, as well as of Polish Jews and
Gypsies by the Nazis were facts well documented in Polish and Nazi
archives. They knew what had happened, and they knew who had committed the
crimes. The issue was not one of establishing guilt, but rather one of
determining who was ultimately responsible for the crimes.

Equating the crimes committed by the Nazis in Poland with witchcraft is
yet another example of why many readers of AR regard you as comic relief
and nothing more.

> =============================================================
> Phillips
> >
> The prisoners counsels understood this. And that is why
> they told the prisoners that denial would be suicidal. They
> would only brand themselves as liars. Their only hope was to
> attempt to minimize their own responsibility.
>
> ===============================================================

Here you have hit the nail on the head. Guilt was not an issue, since the
crimes were manifest and the documents, photographs, and films concerning
the crimes were extant and used as evidence. If films from official Nazi
archives are produced, as they were, in which prisoners are shown as they
succumb to posion gas in a gas chamber, in addition to which the
scientific debriefings discussing the effects of lethal gas produced after
the film are also produced, to deny that gassings took place would indeed
brand anybody stupid enough to defend himself in that way as a liar.

<deletions>
>
> ==========================================================
> Phillips
>
> Ah, yes, the sonderkommandos. Im so glad you brought them
> up. Now, according to you people, these were the very slime
> who ASSISTED in the murder of their fellow Jews for whatever
> comforts or advantages it would bring them.

Another canard which you like to pull out time and again. Members of the
Sonderkommmando were *forced* to "assist" in the murder of their fellow
Jews. The only "comfort or advantages" this would bring them was a few
extra weeks or months of life, since their ranks were evetually thinned
out as younger, healthier Jews were assigned to the Sonderkommando, with
the older Sonderkommando members being eventually consigned to the gas
chambers. It is the gravest sign of disrespect for you to malign these
tragic individuals in this way.

> ==========================================================
> Phillips
>
> Do you really
> imagine it would be an insuperable task to get those slime
> to "confess" to whatever it was you wanted confessing to? A
> modest increase in their rations would have easily done the
> trick.
>
> ============================================================

Such unfounded poppycock is another example of why many people in AR
regard you as a laughing stock. The Sonderkommando crew of Krema IV at
Auschwitz-Birkenau heroically revolted on October 7, 1944, rendering the
facility inoperable [http://www.hagalil.com/shoah/holocaust/greif-0.htm]
and providing the opportunity for many to escape. Almost all of the
escapees were subsequently hunted down and killed by the Nazis.

<deletions>
>
> ==================================================
> Phillips
>
> Supported in what ways?
>
> =====================================

The evolution of the killing facilities can easily be followed by tracing
modifications of construction plans. The relevant documents had to be
depositied in municipal archives after each change, and they survived the
war. At the Irving trial Dr. van Pelt discussed the last-minute
modification of the method of access to the subterranean "morgues" in
Krema III. In the first construction plan, access was via a chute, as is
normal for a morgue. In the final version, the chute has been replaced by
a spiral staircase, and the original "morgue" has been broken up into two
rooms, one an undressing room withpegs on the walls for the victims
clothing, the other the actual gas chamber.

> Kremers evidence is both
> > documentary
> > > > and
> > > > > testimonial. His contemporaneous diary, captured after the war,
> > > > provides
> > > > > many instances of individual gassing actions and this written
> > evidence
> > > > was
> > > > > corroborated and elaborated on in his post war testimony.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you would like to examine any of this testimony let me know.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the physical structures themselves, documents from the
> > > > construction
> > > > > office of the camp detail the gas proofing of rooms supposed to be
> > > > morgues.
> ================================================================
> Phillips
>
> Do they now?
>
> THen isnt it odd that the thing that most impressed four
> different men --Leuchter, Rudolf, Lindsey, and Luftl-- was
> the complete ABSENCE of those measures which would have been
> applied to an execution chamber to assure the safety of the
> operating personnel.
>
> ===============================================================

Yet another example of why you are regarded as a laughing stock in AR.

None of the aforementioned men denied the presence of residual traces of
cyanide on the walls of the former gas chambers almost half a century
later. This means that, an absence of safety features notwithstanding,
that the structures were repeatedly exposed to lethal concentrations of
cyanide.

>
> > > > > Memoranda exist requesting the construction of gas tight doors and
> > > > windows,
> > > > > and these are then listed as part of the inventory documents for
> > the
> > > > Kremas.
> > > > > A letter exists requesting the acquisition of "cyanide gas
> > detectors"
> > > > for
> > > > > these rooms.
>
> ==================================================
> Phillips
>
> THese only tell us that the rooms were to be exposed to gas.

They tell us that they were *repeatedly* exposed to *lethal*
concentrations of cyanide gas. One doesnt engage in such a dangerous
exercise for fun, nor do specific parts of buildings need to be repeatedly
fumigated.

> ==================================================
> Phillips
>
> They tell us nothing about the purpose of said exposure.
>
> ================================================================

That is why we have to rely on other evidence, all of which indicates
beyond reasonable doubt that the purpose of said exposure was to kill the
more than 1,100,000 Jews who were sent to Auschwitz and have never been
seen or heard from since.

> The inventory for Krema II lists wire mesh insertion
> > > > devices,
> > > > > the means by which the Zyklon B was introduced into Kremas II and
> > III
> > > > as
> > > > > testified by numerous witnesses. Michael Kula, a Pole who worked
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > metal workshop and who constructed these devices gave a precise
> > > > description
> > > > > of their structure in post war testimony.
>
> ============================================================
> Phillips
>
> THere is a probsem with your wire-mesh devices. They were
> said to have been used in connection with the large holes
> cut into the roof. There is only one problem. They never
> found the holes.
>
> ==============================================================

The holes are visible in air-reconnaisance photographs made during the war.

> They are also visible on
> > > > wartime
> > > > > Nazis photos and Allied aerial photographs. Written correspondence
> > > > exists
> > > > > identifying rooms as gassing cellars (vergasungskellar) and gas
> > > > chambers
> > > > > (gaskammer).
> ========================================================
> Phillips
>
> No good. There is disagreement about the translation of
> those words.
>
> ========================================================================

There is no disagreement among native speakers of German about what the
words designate: a *Vergasungskeller* [sic] is a cellar [= Keller] in
which living entities are killed by exposure to gas [vergasen = "to kill
by exposure to gas"]. A *Gaskammer* is an enclosure [= Kammer] in which
things or living entities are exposed to gas.

German works like English in that the term "gas chamber/Gaskammer" does
not necessarily mean that the exposure to gas is going to be lethal, but
it does not exclude the possibility. If I say in English, "Caryl Chessman
went to the cyanide tank", my knowledge of the historical context allows
me to conclude that he was put into a tank in which he was killed by
cyanide, ather than the alternative interpretation that there was a
cyanide tank up to which Mr. Chessman walked on his way to somewhere else.

> And post war forensic tests in 1945 and again in the
> > > > 1990s
> > > > > confirm the presence of HCN gas traces in these same rooms
> > equipped
> > > > with gas
> > > > > tight doors and windows, the same rooms in which many witnesses
> > tell
> > > > us the
> > > > > gassings took place,
> ================================================
> Phillips
>
> THere are traces and there are traces so I must ask you:
> what were the EXTENT of the traces found on the walls of
> your alleged execution chamber. IS there so much as one
> solitary fragment of evidence that suggests that the traces
> (1.0 to 7 mg/kg) are what we would expect in a room
> subjected to the exposure you claim the "execution chamber"
> was subjected to.
>
> Those levels are nothing more than what you might find in
> any randomly-chosen house or building.
>
> =======================================================

Another laughing stock statement. You would not expect to find *any*
traces of cyanide in a randonly-chosen house or building *unless* it had
fumigated sometime in the past. Cyanide is extremely poisonous and it does
not leave behind residual ions or compounds unless there is a history of
lethal exposure. You also neglect that 1.0 mg/kg of Prussian Blue amounts
to 100,000,000,000,000,000, 10E17, molecules of the stuff per kilogram,
7.0 mg/kg is seven times that much. Such large amounts of a compouind
deriving from an extremely lethal gas cannot be dismissed as "background
noise".

> the same rooms which were part of buildings
> > > > > specifically constructed with an incineration capacity sufficient
> > to
> > > > > incinerate the projected maximum camp population of 150,000 in
> > just
> > > > over one
> > > > > month, all located in a camp to which 1.1 million people were
> > shipped
> > > > and
> > > > > were then never accounted for.
> =====================================================
> Phillips
>
> Those claims about cremation capacity have been thoroughly
> demolished both by Mattogno and by the testimony of Ivan
> Lagace at the 2nd Zuendel trial.
>
> ==============================================================

He was assuming a "clean" cremation in which each individuals ashes were
kept separate. He was also working on the assumption that the people
cremated were average adults, but many of the Nazis victims were, sadly,
children and babies incapable of being exploited economically.

> ===========================================================
> Phillips
>
> Are you sure that "idiot" is the word you want to use here?
> An idiot is a man subject to many limitations, among which
> is the inability to form a coherent sentence. You obviously
> dont like the sentences I form but I trust you will at
> least concede that I CAN form coherent sentences.
>
> Moreover it appears that in my case even the word idiot is
> not by itself sufficient; rather, I have been elevated to
> the level of "absolute idiot." Well, the Jews (and their
> Allies) do let themselves get carried away in these matters
> and this has to be allowed for.
>
> You accuse me of "denying there is substantial evidence for
> gas chambers." I dont deny that there is evidence; I merely
> state that I do not find it convincing and give the reasons
> why I dont.
>
> ========================================================================

Your primary reason has always been the lack of safety features. You
refuse to concede that a competent exterminator can use far higher
concentrations of cyanide than are needed to kill people in an ordinary
room, train car, or ship, without these buit-in safety features *provided*
that the proper precautions are taken.

The American way of constructing an execution gas chamber, with its
overkill capacity, unnecessary bells and whistles, and safety features is
only one of many possible approaches to constructing a functional gas
chamber. The facts that thousands of people die every year in gas
accidents taking place in perfectly normal rooms and garages without these
necessarily constituting a hazard to their immediate environment, and that
millions of rooms, apartments, train cars, ships, and even tents, once
again, all lacking safety features, are also fumigated by competent
exterminators every year demonstrates conclusively that these safety
features are *completely unnecessary* for the implementation of lethal
gassings, provided that the proper precautions are taken by the
exterminator. Additional evidence is given by the recent Moscow theater
tragedy where, once again, a perfectly ordinary room with no safety
features became a functional a mass execution gas chamber by the
introduction of a fast acting operating room anesthetic that is not even
lethal under normal circumstances. Had cyanide gas rather than the
anesthetic been introduced, everyone in the auditorium would certainly
have died.

You refuse to acknowledge these clear facts. Whether that makes you an
idiot or just an intransigent old fart is not for me to judge.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

Autor: Richard Phillips (2003-07-08 14:33:50)

Philip Mathews wrote:
>
> "Kurt Knoll" wrote in message news:...
> > "Philip Mathews" wrote in message
> > news:susMa.14090$fG.8582@sccrnsc01...
> > > "Kurt Knoll" wrote in message
> > > news:1057100703.299006@critter.monarch.net...
> > >
> > > > "Philip Mathews" wrote in message
> > > > news:i0oMa.77718$R73.10157@sccrnsc04...
> > >
> > > (snip)
> > >
> > > > > > Is this how the Jewish system works Mathews but make sure non of
> > them
> > > > > > can tell their side of the Story so it can be investigated.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is how history works, moron.
> > > > >
> > > > > They told their side of the story. They said they gassed Jews.
> > Apparently
> > > > > most of them were no more intelligent or moral than you.
> > > > >
> > > > > >What a way
> > > > > > to write histories Mathews after that pass laws in Germany that
> > makes
> > > > > > it illegal to discuss the holocaust in public then make sure
> > that
> > > > > > everyone that asks questions later on is called a nazi or anti
> > Semite.
> > > > >
> > > > > The basic history was written long before laws against lying about
> > history
> > > > > were passed. And it is being written today in many nations having
> > no
> > such
> > > > > laws.
> > > > >
> > > > > The laws you complain of have nothing to do with the established
> > facts
> > of
> > > > > the Holocaust.
======================================================================
Phillips

(1) What you choose to call "established facts" are nothing
more than beliefs, widely and commanly held, and fiercely
held by the Jews.

(2) You tell us that the [German] laws have nothing to do
with the established facts of the Holocaust" When a people
are forbidden BY LAW to discuss those "established facts"
then Id say they have a lot to do with them.

=====================================================================================

> > > > >
> > > > > Take that realization to the grave.
> >
> > > > This is what you say if some of them were still alive today would
> > they
> > > > be allowed to talk freely or would they be under a gag order.
> > >
> > > They already talked freely.
=====================================================
Phillips

THere were to be sure a few (a very few) witnesses who did
not say exactly what the Holocaustniks wanted them to say.
(I think this is what Kurt had in mind though Im not sure.)

But they have had zero effect on common perceptions because
they have been drowned out by the trumpetings of
Holocaustia.

=====================================================

> > >
> > > How many times do they have to talk freely for a brain dead Nazi like
> > you?
> > >
> > > Maybe we should doubt all history until we can figure a way to bring
> > back
> > > all eyewitnesses so they can testify over and over again.

===============================================================
Phillips

THere is no way we can bring back all those "eyewitnesses"
but I consider it a great tragedy that a deadly-sharp
defence counsel did not cross-examine the everloving
bejeesus out of them. If that HAD happened, the Holocaust
story today would be a very different one -- assuming there
would still have BEEN a Holocaust story.

My own favourite would have been that dingle-dong who
testified to flames coming out of a crematorium.

===============================================================================
> > >
> > > Or else we could just disregard total loons like you.
>
> > When did they talk freely and where and to whom.
>
> That would depend on the specific witness, moron.
>
> --
> Philip Mathews

Autor: "Philip Mathews" (2003-07-08 22:07:24)

"Richard Phillips" wrote in message
news:3F0B38BE.250688D3@mbay.net...
>
>
> Philip Mathews wrote:
> >
> > "Kurt Knoll" wrote in message
news:...
> > > "Philip Mathews" wrote in message
> > > news:susMa.14090$fG.8582@sccrnsc01...
> > > > "Kurt Knoll" wrote in message
> > > > news:1057100703.299006@critter.monarch.net...
> > > >
> > > > > "Philip Mathews" wrote in message
> > > > > news:i0oMa.77718$R73.10157@sccrnsc04...
> > > >
> > > > (snip)
> > > >
> > > > > > > Is this how the Jewish system works Mathews but make sure non
of
> > > them
> > > > > > > can tell their side of the Story so it can be investigated.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is how history works, moron.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They told their side of the story. They said they gassed Jews.
> > > Apparently
> > > > > > most of them were no more intelligent or moral than you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >What a way
> > > > > > > to write histories Mathews after that pass laws in Germany
that
> > > makes
> > > > > > > it illegal to discuss the holocaust in public then make sure
> > > that
> > > > > > > everyone that asks questions later on is called a nazi or anti
> > > Semite.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The basic history was written long before laws against lying
about
> > > history
> > > > > > were passed. And it is being written today in many nations
having
> > > no
> > > such
> > > > > > laws.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The laws you complain of have nothing to do with the established
> > > facts
> > > of
> > > > > > the Holocaust.

> (1) What you choose to call "established facts" are nothing
> more than beliefs, widely and commanly held, and fiercely
> held by the Jews.

No, they are established facts, just as the occurrence of WWII is an
established facts.

What is belief is the view of a few hundred, perhaps thousand, nutballs who
hate Jews and/or idolize Nazism, that the Holocaust didnt happen.

> (2) You tell us that the [German] laws have nothing to do
> with the established facts of the Holocaust" When a people
> are forbidden BY LAW to discuss those "established facts"
> then Id say they have a lot to do with them.

Then youre not very bright.

I could pass a law tomorrow forbidding any fool from denying that the United
States won independence in a war against England. Such a law would change
historical fact one bit.

> > > > > > Take that realization to the grave.
> > >
> > > > > This is what you say if some of them were still alive today would
> > > they
> > > > > be allowed to talk freely or would they be under a gag order.
> > > >
> > > > They already talked freely.

> THere were to be sure a few (a very few) witnesses who did
> not say exactly what the Holocaustniks wanted them to say.
> (I think this is what Kurt had in mind though Im not sure.)

Really?

Tell us about them? Who are they? What is the evidence they didnt talk
freely?

> But they have had zero effect on common perceptions because
> they have been drowned out by the trumpetings of
> Holocaustia.

So drowned out, in fact, that neither you nor Knoll can tell us who they
are!

> > > > How many times do they have to talk freely for a brain dead Nazi
like
> > > you?
> > > >
> > > > Maybe we should doubt all history until we can figure a way to bring
> > > back
> > > > all eyewitnesses so they can testify over and over again.

> THere is no way we can bring back all those "eyewitnesses"
> but I consider it a great tragedy that a deadly-sharp
> defence counsel did not cross-examine the everloving
> bejeesus out of them.

And what is your evidence they didnt?

And when you are unable to answer this question, wont we be justified in
concluding you are merely a mouther of nonsense and lies you hear from
others?

>If that HAD happened, the Holocaust
> story today would be a very different one -- assuming there
> would still have BEEN a Holocaust story.

And if you had learned any history you would probably be just as obnoxious,
but a shade less embarrassingly ignorant.

> My own favourite would have been that dingle-dong who
> testified to flames coming out of a crematorium.

And youll provide us with your weighty evidence for that conclusion when?

--
Philip Mathews

"Mankind have a great aversion to intellectual labor; but even supposing
knowledge to be easily attainable, more people would be content to be
ignorant than would take even a little trouble to acquire it."

Samuel Johnson

Autor: Roger (2003-07-08 23:11:44)

In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Richard Phillips wrote
in message :

>Philip Mathews wrote:

>> "Kurt Knoll" wrote in message news:...

>> > "Philip Mathews" wrote in message
>> > news:susMa.14090$fG.8582@sccrnsc01...

>> > > "Kurt Knoll" wrote in message
>> > > news:1057100703.299006@critter.monarch.net...

>> > > > "Philip Mathews" wrote in message
>> > > > news:i0oMa.77718$R73.10157@sccrnsc04...

(snip)

>> > > > > > Is this how the Jewish system works Mathews but make sure non of
>> > > > > > them can tell their side of the Story so it can be investigated.

>> > > > > This is how history works, moron.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > They told their side of the story. They said they gassed Jews.
>> > > > > Apparently most of them were no more intelligent or moral than you.

>> > > > > > What a way
>> > > > > > to write histories Mathews after that pass laws in Germany that
>> > > > > > makes it illegal to discuss the holocaust in public then make sure
>> > > > > > that everyone that asks questions later on is called a nazi or anti
>> > > > > > Semite.

>> > > > > The basic history was written long before laws against lying about
>> > > > > history
>> > > > > were passed. And it is being written today in many nations having
>> > > > > no such laws.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The laws you complain of have nothing to do with the established
>> > > > > facts of the Holocaust.

>(1) What you choose to call "established facts" are nothing
>more than beliefs, widely and commanly held, and fiercely
>held by the Jews.

No, they are demonstrable facts. Demonstrable, that is, to anyone who
doesnt suborn fact to their ideology, the way you have.

>(2) You tell us that the [German] laws have nothing to do
>with the established facts of the Holocaust" When a people
>are forbidden BY LAW to discuss those "established facts"
>then Id say they have a lot to do with them.

They are not forbidden to discuss those established facts. What they
cannot do is deny them for no reason other than ideology.

>> > > > > Take that realization to the grave.

>> > > > This is what you say if some of them were still alive today would
>> > > > they
>> > > > be allowed to talk freely or would they be under a gag order.

>> > > They already talked freely.

>THere were to be sure a few (a very few) witnesses who did
>not say exactly what the Holocaustniks wanted them to say.
>(I think this is what Kurt had in mind though Im not sure.)

And your proof that this was not "freely" is...?

>But they have had zero effect on common perceptions because
>they have been drowned out by the trumpetings of
>Holocaustia.

Such as ... ?

>> > > How many times do they have to talk freely for a brain dead Nazi like
>> > > you?
>> > >
>> > > Maybe we should doubt all history until we can figure a way to bring
>> > > back all eyewitnesses so they can testify over and over again.

>THere is no way we can bring back all those "eyewitnesses"
>but I consider it a great tragedy that a deadly-sharp
>defence counsel did not cross-examine the everloving
>bejeesus out of them. If that HAD happened, the Holocaust
>story today would be a very different one -- assuming there
>would still have BEEN a Holocaust story.

Ummm -- they were cross examined. That this didnt result in the
testimony you dearly wish it had doesnt mean it didnt happen.

>My own favourite would have been that dingle-dong who
>testified to flames coming out of a crematorium.

Which you sneer at, for no apparent reason. Did you know that
crematorium operators have a name for the phenomenon? Why would that
be if it didnt happen fairly regularly?

>> > > Or else we could just disregard total loons like you.

>> > When did they talk freely and where and to whom.

>> That would depend on the specific witness, moron.

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